| Hello friends |
| Demos_serres |
Hello,
I'm here in peace and I would like one of the people with the Slavic names to give concise and logical explanations for a few of my questions.
1) Why do I see countless numbers of web pages written by you in a propagandist writing style, which are trying to convince people that Macedonians were not Greek in B.C. when the word Greek did not even exist in that time? By referring to that name you are obviously using a current geographical context and are assuming that Greeks are seperate to the Macedonians.
2) Why do you keep criticizing all of the historical evidence provided by scholarly historians that Macedonians indeed were of a Hellenic/Greek culture, and have failed to provide ANY objective evidence of a different language or culture. Even the ancient Macedonian art that you are presenting as your own is identical to Hellenic/Greek art and hence represents a Hellenic/Greek culture.
3) Why have you adopted and maintained a Slavonic language if you are not Slav?
4) How do you expect 3 million Macedonians that live in the Northern region of Greece to believe your groundless innuendo when your whole argument only leads to territorial claims that you plan will fix your desolate economy.
5) How can you explain that the Hellenic language used in Macedonian names(that gives ALL Macedonian names a literal meaning in Hellenic) is itself known as Ancient Greek, when the word Greek did not exist at the time to describe the people of that area. The term Ancient Greek is given to the Hellenic language and culture that directly evolved into Classical Greek and Modern Greek to which Modern Greeks belong. THE WORD GREEK IS NOT A CORRECT DESCRIPTOR FOR ATHENIANS, SPARTANS, THEBANS, THRACIANS OR MACEDONIANS OR ANY HELLENOPHONES AS IT DID NOT EXIST IN B.C.
6) Without desperately criticising question 5 can you provide ANY evidence at all of a link between your current language or culture to that of the ancient Macedonians?, especially when your people have a Slavic-Russian appearance. This would help 3 million Macedonians in Greece to rest peacefully.
7) Do you think that Greek Macedonians care if Americans bomb the whole country to gain power in this strategic region. Do you think that you would stand a chance against us in a war?
|
| tomislav1978 |
*************** |
| dejan |
Demos...i'm sure you do come in here peace...but i am also sure that inside you, you despise us. I'm sure that you wish the most negative things upon us MACEDONIANS.
Oh and you ask us why we create such websites that defend what we believe in, well that's because we are trying very hard to make sure that you pokvareni Greeks do not eradicate any form of evidence that supports us.
You know Demos...maybe you should try and see things from our side...and if you do not want to go reading through our websites, then i suggest, that is if you do live in Serres, then why don't you go to towns like Florina and the villages around it?? I really recommend that you go there, and try and listen for any 'foreign' language that you might here. Then i hope that experience will answer the many questions you have and settle your confused little mind.
Now i expect you to say that you have been to Florina and those areas towards the border of Macedonia...blah blah the people call themselves Greeks and so on...but guess what, you have no idea how it is like for a people living on their own land in a foreign country, and are being opressed by that country and are afraid to claim their own nationality because they'll be harrassed/won't receive the same benefits as everyone else/won't be treated as a human but like some farm animal.
Demos, can you also PLEASE stop sounding like you are some computer programmed robot that does not know anything else and refuses to understand another side. Btw those supposedd '3 million Macedonians' most of them come from Turkey so i wouldn't call them Macedonians[;)] |
| vancom18 |
poor moronic immigrant
rather cares for macedonians, than albanians and turks - which are the real problem for greece
also, turkish republic of cyprus is worldwide recognized |
| Demosthenes |
I ask you again, to please direct me to ANY objective evidence where you can link your culture and language today to that of the Ancient Macedonians. We have directed your people to this evidence many times. You can only be critical of it because this is the story your father and your Tito told you since 1945. A man and his legacy go only a few generations back, be it the truth, or a very obvious lie.
Now you see it from our point of view, and tell me how we can not be angry. When we see Americans brainwash all of the unfortunately uneducated people in your country. Tell me how we are not suppose to defend our name to the death, which we have a literal meaning for in our language. Which actually means something in our language or the predecessor language which is known world-wide to be Ancient Greek. This is not because they were GREEK. No such thing as a Greek in B.C. Do you understand?
The Americans have found a perfect way to bring this illusion to life. They say what goes today. They have the power to do what they wish. Your people are just desperate to survive in this stupid world and are being used like a pawn.
Unfortunately you are all screaming for death, and we will have to bring that to you. We don't want to, but we must. To uphold that which guards us and all Greek speaking people, whether they came from Macedonia, or Thrace, or Pontos. You understand? These three groups of people have been considered as Hellenes since ancient times, even if in 600 B.C. they were not entirely that. Slavs have NOTHING to do with us. Although I know your Slav blood very well, and Greek Macedonians know it as a worthy opponent and sometimes a friend, you have nothing to do with us and you will die, because you have nothing but lies, and you are nothing but lies.
DEATH OR FREEDOM |
| dejan |
Demosthenes, i think you should be asking those questions in the 'Macedonian History' section, not the 'Politics' section.
Btw the name 'Macedonia' does not belong to Greece.
Unfortunately you are all screaming for death, and we will have to bring that to you.
Yep, you do that. I would like to see you weak people enter our country and kill us all (just like you did to the Macedonians in Northern Greece in WWII). Then we'll smile at you all from heavan, while you're in hell where people like you belong.
One commandment that Greece as a country and the people, does not follow is the one where you are supposed to love/respect your neighbour. |
| Demosthenes |
but this is the heaven that is from our spiritual teaching and only a Slav neighbour like you would show no respect and no love and steal that which we did not gift to him.
Where do you thank us for giving you our orthodox scripture, or translating it into your dislexic version of the Greek alphabet which you couldn't even write caveman.
Ortho meaning 'correct' and dox 'opinion' in GREEK. |
| Demosthenes |
Saint Cyril (Greek: #913;#947;#953;#959;#962; #922;#973;#961;#953;#955;#955;#959;#962;, Old Church Slavonic: Ñâåòè Êèðèë) (827 - February 4, 869) was a Byzantine monk, scholar, theologian, and linguist. He is best known today for his work in Christianising the Slavs and, with his brother Saint Methodius, is credited with devising the Glagolithic and rarely also with devising the Cyrillic alphabet. |
| SpaceLily |
[:X][:D] |
| dejan |
Demosthenes...one day when people like realise/find out the truth (i don't know in your case...you might continue living believing in fake things that make you the person who you are, thus you being fake as an entire being) you will receive a very annoying smack in your face. So the best advice i can give for you is to be prepared. [:)]
With love, Dejan. |
| tomislav1978 |
abe so *** bara ovoj guptinov..daj BANirajte go |
| Great_Macedonian |
quote Demo...: 4) How do you expect 3 million Macedonians that live in the Northern region of Greece to believe your groundless innuendo when your whole argument only leads to territorial claims that you plan will fix your desolate economy.
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aham.. 3 million what?? are you speaking about the turkic/arabic orthodox "greeks" which were sent to Aegean Macedonia in the 1920's as part of a pop. exchange with Turkey??
You kicked out or assimilated the majority of the real macedonians during the past hundred years.
Quote Demo....:This is not because they were GREEK. No such thing as a Greek in B.C. Do you understand?
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Amen!! if there was no such thing as GREEK in ancient greece then why do you claim macedonians were greek?
btw, im ancient times there was no sense of "ethnic identity" in the way we understand it today... hellenic was the universal language used all around the ancient world, the ancient macedonians used their own language for home, but also used greek as the official language to communicate with their neighbours.
The ancient macedonians and thracians were of non-hellenic background. Even if they did belong to the "hellenic" peoples, that doesnt change the fact that today they/we dont! So build a bridge and get over it trol.
If the "slavs" really did come to the balkans 1500years ago.. i have read many sources which claim that they went all the way down to pellopones, thus modern greeks have ancient greek and slav + aromanian and albanian background my friend. Your not so "pure". Nobody is pure!
The slavs came to Macedonia like they did everywhere, did they find an empty land? NO!! there is no written source to state that the ancient macedonians vanished of the face of the earth when the slavs migrated there.
The ancient macedonians gave there christian religion to the slavs and with time intermixed with eachother-resulting in the modern macedonian identity.
Open a bible.. you will come across a page that states "Apostole Paul spread Christianity to Europe by Christianising a Macedonian women named Lydia."
This was obviously before the alegged "slav settlements".
Lydia is even today a popular name which many macedonian women carry.
Im not trying to prove how "pure" we macedonians are.... all im saying is that we inherited the genes of the ancient macedonians! not some turkic/arabic "greek" which settled in macedonia 75years ago, and certainly not some greek from Athens which looks as dark as an Egyptian.
P.S: The ancient macedonians were light skin people, Alexander had blue eyes and blonde hair... modern macedonians have all the characteristics of the ancient macedonians.. greeks have always been dark skinned short people.
If you want me to post you facts from sources, i will... but for now, just read my 'signiture'.
|
| DJ_SHEMA |
Demosthenes was born in Athens, Greece in 384 B.C. to a wealthy family. At the age of seven, his father died and he was put under the care of guardians.
He had a delicate physique that prevented him from receiving the customary Greek gymnastic education. The problem was that Demosthenes had a speech defect. He was inarticulate and had a stammering pronunciation.
When Demosthenes was 28 years old, King Philip of Macedonia--same age as Demosthenes--started to annex Athenian possessions. Demosthenes was very patriotic and concerned about these events, as well as other threats to Athens.
When he was 33, Demosthenes delivered a speech against King Philip of Macedonia. This established him as the leader of the opposition to Macedonian ambitions. Over the next several years, he gave speeches trying to arouse the Athenians against the Macedonian threat.
For the next several years, Demosthenes continued his speeches against Philip and the Macedonians. The speeches--although moving--were ineffective in the fight. The Macedonian army was well organized under a single brilliant commander who used cavalry in coordination with highly disciplined infantry, while the Greek alliance depended upon what was essentially a group of citizens' militia.
When he was 46, in 338 BC, Demosthenes fought in a battle against the Macedonians but fled after dropping his arms. The Macedonians won the battle and defeated allies of Athens. Although disgraced, the people of Athens still chose Demosthenes to deliver the funeral oration for those slain in the battle.
In 336 BC, Philip was assassinated and his son Alexander succeeded him. Alexander had been educated by a pro-Macedonian resident of Athens, Aristotle. Soon he would be known as Alexander the Great, because of his conquests.
When the when the city of Thebes rebelled against him the following year, Alexander destroyed it. After a string of victories, Alexander then demanded that Athens surrender.
In 324 BC, at the age of 60, Demosthenes was convicted in a complex and obscure affair involving money taken by one of the lieutenants of Alexander the Great. He was forced to flee from prison and go into exile.
The following year Alexander died. The Athenians recalled Demosthenes from exile and provided money to pay his fine so he could help throw out the Macedonians. They also rose up against supporters of Alexander, including great philosopher and scientist Aristotle, whom they convicted to death. |
| DJ_SHEMA |
http://faq.macedonia.org/history/ancient.macedonia/from.html |
| Demosthenes |
"turkic/arabic orthodox "greeks" which were sent to Aegean Macedonia in the 1920's as part of a pop. exchange with Turkey??"
The Pontians ans Thracians that were conquered and slaughtered and sent over by the Turks were Byzantine Greeks and upheld the same Greek values the Macedonians did. The Turks covered their women and definately did not intermarry with the Greeks.
"Amen!! if there was no such thing as GREEK in ancient greece then why do you claim macedonians were greek?"
I don't think you understood what I stated earlier. I said that indeed the Macedonians were not like the other city-states. The term Greek that you use to describe people in the ancient times is incorrect. The Hellenes including ALL Hellenophones are the direct descendents of Greeks today. The term Greek was given to us in Roman times. Macedonians are Greek because that's how they have been identified through an evolution of Hellenic culture in the region.
"hellenic was the universal language used all around the ancient world, the ancient macedonians used their own language for home, but also used greek as the official language to communicate with their neighbours."
So what language did they use exactly? Slavonic? This language didn't even exist then, why are your people claiming something that makes no sense. Do your research and provide us with physical and historical evidence, then we will respect your claims.
Macedonians are still using greek as the official language to communicate. Do you understand?, there is overwhelming physical evidence that you are the Slavs that moved into our region.
"The liturgy and offices of the Byzantine Church were translated from the Greek into what is now Old Slavonic (or Church Slavonic) by Sts. Cyril and Methodius about the year 866 and the period immediately following. St. Cyril is credited with having invented or adapted a special alphabet which now bears his name (Cyrillic) in order to express the sounds of the Slavonic language, as spoken by the Bulgars and Moravians of his day."
"Old Bulgarian (9th to 11th century, also referred to as Old Church Slavonic) was the language used by St. Cyril, St. Methodius and their disciples to translate the Bible and other liturgical literature from Greek. Middle Bulgarian (12th to 15th century) was a language of rich literary activity and major innovations. Modern Bulgarian dates from the 16th century onwards."
Modern Bulgarian would be the closest to your language, am I not correct?
The only light skinned blue-eyed people are Slavs. Don't put words in my mouth, I never said we were pure either. But Greeks today have done their best to uphold the Hellenic culture and language. The international community has given credit to us by giving the Ancient Hellenic language (as you said, used by Macedonians) the name, Ancient Greek.
"Open a bible.. you will come across a page that states "Apostole Paul spread Christianity to Europe by Christianising a Macedonian women named Lydia."
This was obviously before the alegged "slav settlements".
Lydia is even today a popular name which many macedonian women carry."
True, Macedonians have names with Greek origin, most of which have literal meaning in Ancient Greek. This includes Lydia and every single last other Ancient Macedonian name in the book. Please search the meanings of those names on the net.
So where abouts did we go wrong? No subjective criticism please, it is only a byproduct of your blonde, blue-eyed American friends illusion. Objective evidence only.
|
| Great_Macedonian |
So what language did they use exactly? Slavonic? This language didn't even exist then, why are your people claiming something that makes no sense. Do your research and provide us with physical and historical evidence, then we will respect your claims.
Macedonians are still using greek as the official language to communicate. Do you understand?, there is overwhelming physical evidence that you are the Slavs that moved into our region.
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Todays Macedonian language is indeed considered as part of the "slavonic" group of languages.
Howether, it bears evidence of ancient macedonian words....
You greeks are so stupid because you think that language determined identity.. modern north africans speak arabic but they are not arabs. I see you know very well bulgarian history for some ironic reason. The bulgarians are slav speakers but the majority of them have non-slavic ancestry. Get the point?
The only people that declare themselves as 'macedonians' at any census in any country are the "slavic" speaking macedonians.
Why Macedonia and the Macedonians had Never been Greek?
1. The ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, separate from their neighbors, the ancient Greeks, Illyrians, and Thracians. The ancient Greek and Roman historians tell us that the Macedonians spoke a separate Macedonian language and had their own customs, culture, and traditions. Archeological discoveries confirm that the material culture of the Macedonians also defer greatly from all their neighbors, and it is by far more superior in artistry (gold, paintings, weapons, mosaics) then anything found in contemporary Greece, Illyria, and Thrace. The texts of the ancient writers distinguish the Macedonians from the ancient Greeks, just like they distinguish the Romans and the Carthaginians. Yet, like the other non-Greeks, Carthaginians, Romans, Illyrians, and Thracians, the Macedonian high society also used the Greek language along with Macedonian. Greek was spoken by the nobility of many different ancient nations, just like French was spoken in the 19th century (at the German and Russian courts for example). Unfortunately there are only about 150 glosses that have survived of the ancient Macedonian language (most of them with no relation whatsoever with ancient Greek), and like ancient Carthaginian, Illyrian, and Thracian, it can not be reconstructed. There is no doubt nevertheless that the Illyrains, Thracians, and Macedonians were non-Greeks, or in the words of the ancient Greeks "barbarians" which literally means people who spoke other non-Greek languages.
2. Macedonia became a world power when the Macedonian king Philip II conquered Thrace, greater part of Illyria, and the whole of Greece (except Sparta). At the battle of Chaeronea in 338, the Macedonian army destroyed the united Greek army, and put an end to Greek freedom and ancient Greek history. To secure the Macedonian conquest, Macedonian garrisons were established in the Greek cities, just like they were established in Thrace and Illyria.
3. Alexander the Great (336-323 BC), Philip II's son took the Macedonian armies even further and conquered the Persian Empire, making Macedonia the largest and most powerful nation in the world for centuries to come. In his army next to the Macedonians, he utilized also troops from the Balkan nations that his father Philip II conquered - Greeks, Illyrians, and Thracians. The Greeks in the Macedonian army however were commanded by Macedonians, their contribution in the conquest was insignificant and miniscule, and modern historiography calls them nothing but Macedonian "hostages" who would ensure a good behavior of their friends and families back in Greece (Peter Green, Urlich Wilcken, Ernst Badian, Eugene Borza, A.B. Bosworth). Aware that the Greeks despised the Macedonians, Alexander left massive Macedonian occupation troops in their country before heading for the conquest of Persia, although he knew that he would need as many as possible Macedonians for the dangerous campaign ahead. He however rid himself of the Greeks in his army the first chance he got, after burning the Persian capital Persepolis, and learning that the last Greek state Sparta was defeated by the Macedonian troops he left to watch rebellious Greece.
4. Despite all, the Greeks never stopped fighting the Macedonians. While Alexander was conquering Persia with his 25-30,000 Macedonians, more then 50,000 Greeks actually fought on the side of the Persians against the Macedonians (Curtius). The Macedonians slaughtered 18,000 of them in the first battle and sent 2,000 to forced labor in Macedonia (Arrian). After Alexander died the Macedonian general Pithon massacred 23,000 more in a single battle when the Greeks revolted in Bactria (Diodorus). In Greece, when the news of Alexander the Great's death became known, the Greeks united once again and threw out the Macedonians out of their country in the Lamian War (Diodorus). But the Macedonian army returned with massive reinforcements, defeated the Greeks both on land and sea, and re-occupied Greece, putting a bloody end of the Lamian War (Diodorus).
5. The Greeks nevertheless continued raising rebellion after rebellion against the Macedonians to free Greece from the foreign occupation. All successors of Alexander the Great fought them, and the Macedonian king Antigonus II Gonatas fought three Greek uprising who unified against the "barbarous Macedonians" (Diodorus, Plutarch, Justin). Finally in 197 BC, the Macedonian king Philip V was defeated by the joint force of Romans and Greeks, and Macedonia lost Greece after almost 150 years of occupation. When the Romans proclaimed that Greece is free, such an enormous burst of enthusiasm exploded among the Greeks that the Roman general who made the announcement was almost killed by the mass of people that flocked to shake his hand and congratulate him for diving the Macedonians out (Livy, Polybius).
6. After the defeat of the Macedonian king Perseus in 168 BC, and the end of the Macedonian rebellion in 148 BC, Macedonia, Greece, and Carthage became part of the Roman Empire. In 395 AD with the split of the Roman Empire, Macedonia and Greece became part of the East Roman (or Byzantine) Empire.
7. Slavs invaded the whole of Balkans in the 6th century, including Macedonia and the whole of Greece, all the way down to the Peloponnesus. Byzantine historians clearly mentioned that the Macedonians did not disappear with the Slavic invasion but continued to exist. In the 10th century Salonica is described as the "largest city of the Macedonians" and to subdue the independent Slavic tribes in the Peloponnesus in Greece, the Byzantine emperors who were Macedonians, belonging to the Macedonian Dynasty, had to sent "Macedonians and Thracians" against them. Thus the Macedonians and Slavs have been living side by side ever since the 6th century. Over period of centuries these Slavic people mixed into the Macedonians in Macedonia, and with the Greeks in Greece, and laid the foundations for the modern Macedonian and Greek nations. Historical records continue to mention the Macedonians until the fall of the Byzantine Empire. It must be stressed that there is NO record of invasion of Greeks into Macedonia.
8. Turkey conquered the Balkans in the 14th century including Greece and Macedonia. With the help of the western powers, the Greeks freed themselves in the 1820's, but the Macedonians failed to gain freedom with their rebellions in 1870's and in 1903.
9. Independent European and Balkan statistics (except exaggerated Greek sources) from the late 19th and early 20th century show that the Greeks were a small minority of only 10%, living in the most southern parts of Macedonia, bordering Greece.
10. In 1913 Greece and her allies Serbia and Bulgaria, with the help of more then 100,000 Macedonians who fought along these three armies, drove the Turks out of Macedonia, but Macedonia did not gain its freedom. Instead, the Balkan countries partitioned Macedonia among themselves and Greece occupied the largest part, 51% of the whole territory, called Aegean Macedonia.
11. Even Greeks sources, including the king of Greece himself in 1912, confirm that when the Greek armies occupied Aegean Macedonia the overwhelming majority of the population were NOT Greeks, confirming the fact that the Greeks never lived in Macedonia since the most ancient times (Nikolaides, Spiros Melas Epopee).
12. But since 1913 Greece begun its assimilatory policies against the Macedonians, changing their family names to Greek names, renaming the cities, rivers, and mountains with Greek names, and forbidding the speaking of the Macedonian language.
13. In the mid 1920's Greeks from Asia Minor begun migrating into Aegean Macedonia for a first time ever, and soon the Macedonians found themselves among strangers in their native land, who most vigorously attacked everything that represents the Macedonian nationality and consciousness. In the 1930's the Macedonians were forced to drink castor oil for speaking Macedonian and had to pay financial penalty for every spoken word of Macedonian.
14. In 1991 the Republic of Macedonia, located north of Aegean Macedonia in Greece, became an independent country. The Republic of Macedonia was the part of Macedonia that Serbia occupied with the partition of 1913. In 1945 the Macedonians of the Republic drove away the fascist Albanian, Bulgarian, and German occupation forces and voted to join new federal Yugoslavia because it respected the Macedonian nationality. With the disintegration of Yugoslavia in the early 1990-1, the Macedonians voted independence in a referendum.
15. Afraid that now one part of Macedonia is independent, the Greeks launched a world-wide propaganda against the Macedonians claiming that "Macedonia has been Greek for 4000 years" (sometimes they say 3000 years, 2500, etc. It varies.). Ironically, despite the fact that the ancient Macedonians committed a real genocide against the ancient Greeks, the ancestors of today's Greeks, despite the fact the Macedonians in Greece are oppressed by them, and despite the fact that the Greeks moved in Aegean Macedonia as majority only 75 years ago.
16. While the Greeks only recently begun to launch the amazing claim that they are descendents of the ancient Macedonians (the people who murdered their own ancestors), it should be stressed that at least since the 18th century (DeTott) and including the 19th and 20th century, there are written records which show that the Macedonians claimed direct descendent from the ancient Macedonians in their struggle to free Macedonia from the Turks. That is centuries before Greece took Aegean Macedonia with its army and launched its propaganda.
17. Today, as we enter the 21st century, the Macedonians of Greece continue to be harassed and discriminated by the Greek government, 87 years since Greece took over Aegean Macedonia. The Macedonian language is still not recognized, the Macedonian nationality is still denied, and the Macedonians are still forced to have Greek family names, because having a Macedonian name Greece considers illegal. Human Rights Watch (Denying Ethnic Identity - Macedonians of Greece), Amnesty International, and the European Community have the Greek oppression of the Macedonians well documented, found Greece guilty, and demanded that it recognize the Macedonian language and nation and end its oppression. Despite of it, the Macedonians continue to exist in Greece as majority in the northern half of Aegean Macedonia and as minority in the southern half, and peacefully continue to demand their human rights. Will Greece ever became a democracy?
18. The Greeks and the Macedonians also greatly defer in physical appearance. The Greeks have typically darker tan then the Macedonians who are fair skinned. Historian Arthur Waigell have stated that the same difference in complexion existed between the ancient Greeks and Macedonians, and the ancient Greek historian Plutarch wrote that Alexander the Great had a fair complexion, criticizing a certain Greek sculptor who had given him a darker tan. The fact that both the Greeks and Macedonians have kept their ancient names is proof that both have been aware of, and preserved their lineage since most ancient times. And finally the latest scientific genetic research conducted by the University in Madrid, Spain concluded that the Macedonians are direct descendents of the ancient Macedonians, while the Greeks are unrelated to European origins and to the "older" Mediterranean substratum to which Macedonians belong to.
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| SLaCk |
I have only one question for you.Why do you Greeks deny the existence of Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia(Northern Greece now)? I`m asking you because my grandmother lived in Drama region near Seres and 50 years ago macedonians were majority in that region, I don`t want to start about Lerin and Voden regions where above 70% of the population was Macedonian. When you answer this questions and you admit that 50 years ago many Macedonians fled Greece under pressure of the new government and even today in the regions of Voden Lerin Seres Kukus Drama there is a big minority of Macedonian people we can speak about other things... |
| profa |
Demo,why do you think the culture and the language speaks of peoples identitiy?
5-6 centuries ago the USA was a literally desert inhabitet with tribes with culture and language totally different then the ones today and this is the country proving that matter i firstly thought of,there are more.
I dont think us,Macedonians argue over our identity of our people as much as we do about the originality of our country.Even if we,the slavs moved down and inhabited the Ancient Macedonia we still mingled with Ancient Macedonians meaning we at least have a bit of it in ourselves unlike you who have none.
And in the worst,very worst case ,let the Ancient Maceds were Greeks.We,the Slavs came down and concuered that whole teritory and became the rulers of it.So,what you r gonna do,go back for 15 centuries and look for a justice,come on?
I dont think i/we would ever find a reliable proof for wheather we are Slavics or Ancient Maceds therefore i am not gonna bother myself with it but one think i know for sure:
I was born and raised in Macedonia,as well as my paranets and their parents and their parents' parents and so on for 15 centuries back at least and that s what matters to me now.
So happy new year! |
| Demosthenes |
? |
| Demosthenes |
Hi again,
Happy New Year. I understand, the issue does get technical, but you are just picking on the very few points that suit you, so I'm going to do the same.
1) The Macedonians in "Agean Macedonia" also mingled with the other Greek people in the area.
2) Macedonians and Greeks can not be spoken about in the same context and hence made seperate in the ancient times because the Hellenic state had not even formed yet.
3) Our friend the Megas Macedonian has left out the entire history and objective evidence of the Hellenic Empire and how it evolved.
4) You have failed to show statistics on how many Slavs are claiming to be Macedonian.
5) Greeks from Turkey were just Byzantine from the Eastern section of the empire and were conquered by the Turks.
6) The word Greek is not a correct descriptor for any of the ancient people of that land as it only suits the current geographical context where the name Macedonia has been wrongfully assigned to the Slavic people to the north and has no immediate explanation of the Macedonian culture.
7) The Macedonians used Ancient Hellenic (ancient Greek) during the Hellenic period, Byzantine Greek during the great Eastern Roman Empire and they still use Modern Greek today. Saints Cyrril and Methodius also used Greek as everybody did during the Byzantine reign and passed Cyrrilic on to the Slavs to the north. This language developed into Slavonic and hence you are those Slavs that used that language. If you are not, then you should still be using Greek like the Byzantine Macedonians did.
8) Here is the link to the objective evidence that proves the Macedonians as a Greek speaking people throughout history.
www.macedonian-heritage.gr/HellenicMacedonia/en/gallery.html
Your people have identified this as a propaganda page (although it is not)so just look at the photos. There are some nice things on Macedonia on this page.
9) Megas is right, you can not reconstruct an entire new alphabet, you have already reconstructed enough. Your claims are subjective and are not verifiable.
So if you are Macedonian, you must start using Greek again, as this is what Macedonians have been using since the Hellenistic era, even if want to keep another language of your own. |
| Demosthenes |
...and let me remind you that history is a study of objectivity. It is not something that you concoct overnight to spark passion in desperate people. |
| DJ_SHEMA |
Show me what was greece before 1800. |
| Demosthenes |
ok,
Depending on how far you want to back. I will once again refer you only to pictures of physical evidence (from the same link).
www.macedonian-heritage.gr/HellenicMacedonia/en/gallery.html
check Inscriptions number 8 of 9. shows a tombstone from Thessaloniki 5th century A.D. with inscriptions in Byzantine Greek. From what I can read, it says that "he gave everything in his life and his was a servant of God." This language would be the same that was used by Saint Cyrill even though he invented Cyrillic to differentiate between the Greeks and the Slavs. He was very wise to forsee all of this.
- Coins photo 15 of 22, is a coin from ancient Macedonia 187 - 168 B.C. that says "Thessalonike" in Greek (Not Solun)
I can't be bothered looking up all these things for you. Look through all of the images.
- Manuscripts photo 4 of 70, Byzantine scholar Georgios Gemistos Plethon, 15th Century, all in Greek.
- Documents 4 of 12, a Greek Macedonian from Veroia (1572 - 1657)
- Paintings 1 of 22 , Pavlos Melas in the costume of a 'Makedonomachos' (Macedonian freedom fighter), from a painting by G. Iakovidis, 1904-1908.
- Pub. Buildings 8 of 34, The building of the Society for Macedonian Studies, 1939-1994, Thessaloniki.
- Documents 3 of 12, Propaganda poster circulated in Canada by Skopje, in which Greek Macedonia is shown as unredeemed territory of the 'Socialist Republic of Macedonia', 1960-1989. This one shows all the Bulgarians as one.
- Manuscripts 19 of 70 - Basil II Bulgaroktonos
Miniature of Basil II Bulgaroktonos (the Bulgar Slayer) wearing military uniform and crown and holding a sword, from an early 11th century Psalter, Biblioteca Nazionale Marciana, Venice.
- Documents 9 0f 12, Timetable for the Thessaloniki-Skopje-Zipevce line (near Vrania on the Ottoman-Austrian border), 1888-1912, Thessaloniki.
- Coins 12 of 22 - Gold stater of Philip II showing a chariot on the reverse and bearing the legend "Philippou" (of Philip), 345-336 BC, Athens, Numismatic Museum."
- Photographs 87 of 133, The armed band of Georgios Galanopoulos
Black-and-white photograph of the armed band of Georgios Galanopoulos, which was active in the area of Mount Athos, 1907-1908, Athens, National Historical Museum.
- Photographs 89 of 133 Black-and-white photograph of Captain Vangelis Natsis of Strebeno, a Slav-speaking patriarchist who organized the first armed band of Greeks in western Macedonia, 1901-1904, Athens, National Historical Museum
That was just at random. Have a good look, show me some of your own physical evidence.
|
| Demosthenes |
manuscripts 2 of 70 Bulgar defeat at Spercheios river
Miniature depicting Bulgars put to flight by Nikephoros Ouranos at the Spercheios river, from the Chronicle of Ioannis Skylitzis, mid-12th to mid-13th century,Madrid,Biblioteca Nacional.
churches 5 of 30 The church of Panagia Chalkeon in Thessaloniki
Exterior view of the domed cruciform church of Panagia Chalkeon, 1028, Thessaloniki.
churches 6 of 30 The church of the Agioi Apostoloi in Thessaloniki
Exterior view of the domed cruciform church of Agioi Apostoloi, 1310-1330, Thessaloniki.
churches 21 0f 30 The church of Agios Achilleios in lake Small Prespa
View of the triple-aisled basilica church of Agios Achilleios, circa 1000, Agios Achilleios Island, Little Prespa.
manuscripts 45 of 70 - Monastery of Agios Savvas
Miniature scene with the Monastery of Agios Savvas, 1680, Grigoriou Monastery, Mount Athos
|
| Demosthenes |
maps 9 of 48 - Map of the southern Balkans
The new borders in the southern Balkans after the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
maps 3 of 48 - The Hellenistic states in 270 BC.
maps 6 of 48 - The themes of the Byzantine empire in the 10th century.
|
| dejan |
Can you go away demosthenes...either leave because no one here likes you or just go to the history section. I'm really tired reading your bull shit here. |
| Demosthenes |
hey,
Your friend asked me to show something. Now if you are not going to contribute to the objective evidence, then piss off. Do you have anything to show or not? Do you only have your preconceived nonsense.
|
| dejan |
Hey i asked you to leave idiot, now go away. |
| profa |
demo dude,we r really drunk,just got back home.Happy new ywar again.Is been 15 centuries since then.Ancient Macd are dead,forget about them.There are 2000000 macd in Macedonia,some in Greece some in Bulfaria,Albania and quite many in all over the...
We are Macedonians ,we got this name after the countrry we were born in.Anciwent Maced lived only 5 centuries AC and also before BC and now called Maceds have been livin for more then 15 centuries AC.I dont care if u call us Slavs or ...
You know,americans dont call themselves so cuz they ride horses and live in cages or hunt prays using bows and arrows but they call themselvs so cuz they were born in America.Before there were native Americans and now there only Americans.There are still native americans existing and being spoken of.In Macedonia there were Ancient Macedonians before and now there are only Macedonians and i dont think these Macedonians think they are off-srpings of the ancient ones.We were taught in school that we were Slavs and that kinda makes sense eventhough some sources say we might not be slavs but i dont give a sh.. about it.So,once again We are all Macedonians cuz we were all born in the teritory or country of Macedonia.Maybe the ancient Maced spoke a language that was very similar to the greek language but that does not give u the right to say they were greeks,then why would they call themselves Macedoniasns and not Greeks.
Even if they were Greeks,the Slavs moved down and f... them up :) and have been living there for 15 centuries so drop this conversaton.We ve read and discussed this type of conversation for so long and do you really think you would convince these ppl here in something they themselves know it s not true or in something they dont wanna beleive?
Drop it!
Good night,new years eve sucks :) |
| Great_Macedonian |
No dejan, i want him to stay...
His "evidence" does not scare those of us that know our history.
quote Demosthenes: 4) You have failed to show statistics on how many Slavs are claiming to be Macedonian.
-----------------------------------------------
What do you mean by this?? If you are reffering to us as slavs and you want statistical evidence on how many claim to be macedonian.!?
First of all i am gonna direct you here http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/OttomanMacedonia/statistics.html and before you say "thats a slav propaganda site" read the page and youl find out it those statistics are from outside sources.
R.Macedonia: Macedonian 64.2%, Albanian 25.2%, Turkish 3.9%, Roma 2.7%, Serb 1.8%, other 2.2% (2002 census) http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mk.html
Now lets look at greek stats: Greek 98%, other 2%
note: the Greek Government states there are no ethnic divisions in Greece http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gr.html
The above is proof of greek deniel of ethnic minorities.
Bulgaria stats: Bulgarian 83.9%, Turk 9.4%, Roma 4.7%, other 2% (including Macedonian, Armenian, Tatar, Circassian) (2001 census) http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/bu.html
Although the real number of macedonians in bulgaria is hidden, cia shows that there exists a macedonian minority in bulgaria, seperate people from bulgarians and obviously non-greek.
Now lets see what CIA says about Albania stats: Albanian 95%, Greek 3%, other 2% (Vlach, Roma (Gypsy), Serb, Macedonian, Bulgarian) (1989 est.) http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/al.html
Again, even though 1989 census in albania do not show clear number of macedonians there, it is mentioned that such a minority exists as seperate to greek or bulgarian.
What you greeks fail to understand is that your whole criteria for someones identity is based around origins of language.
If i learnt greek and started speaking greek and started identifying myself as greek then you wouldnt question my "greeknes".
But if i speak non-greek and identify myself as macedonian then all of a sudden YOU think you have the right to tell me i am not what i say i am!?!.
|
| Demosthenes |
hello,
This is the meaning of objective:
ob·jec·tive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-jktv)
adj.
Of or having to do with a material object.
Having actual existence or reality.
Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices: an objective critic. See Synonyms at fair1.
Based on observable phenomena; presented factually: an objective appraisal.
If you haven't noticed, the web site that you referred me to has no objectivity to it. Those tables are not originals, they look like someone just typed them up.
"1) the 2 Turkish censuses above cannot be taken into consideration because the Turks registered the inhabitants based upon their religious background, not ethnic."
Greek, Serb and Bulgarian are not relogious backgrounds like this person explains them to be. I can tell that it was written in anger and disbelief at the evidence that was presented.
"the Macedonian Orthodox Church was forbidden (upon the insistence of the Greeks in 1767), and the Macedonians had choice to enter either Islam or the only Christian Orthodox Churches the Turks legitimized "
"Macedonians had no choice but to enter Islam" WHAT.
Then all of a sudden Greeks and Turks are working together, which is another sign of personal prejudice.
"The Islam was not an option for the first Christians of Europe, and the Macedonians had no other choice but to have religious services in Bulgarian, Greek, or Serbian Church."
That is how your people try to twist everything around without any concrete evidence.
I hope your not boiling in there, but please show something real and physical. The person who wrote that site does not give you much credit. Do you understand what I am talking about? At every moment that your people are shown actual evidence they are shocked with disbelief and allow their emotions and prejudices take over.
There's more holes in that story.
Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians.
Bulgarisants is not a Greek word, it means nothing in Greek. Then soon after the person uses the word "unpreparess" which does not have a meaning in the English language.
Surely, you do not expect me to accept this as a reliable source of objective evidence.
"I am not Bulgarian, nor Greek, nor Tzintzar, I am pure Macedonian as were Philip and Alexander the Macedonian and Aristotle Philosopher"
This is truly laughable. Your people are definately contradicting eachother.
"According to my own studies on the Serb-Bulgarian conflict I came to the conclusion that the Macedonians looking at their history and language are a separate nation, which means they are not Serbs nor Bulgarians, but the descendants of those Slavs who populated the Balkan peninsula long before the Serb and Bulgarian invasions, and who later did not mix with any of those other two nations..."
If they are direct descendants of those Slavs who populated the peninsula in 600 A.D., then how can they be the same as the people as those in B.C.
Oh man, I feel like I'm editing your own propaganda, I better leave it and just let everyone laugh.
|
| Demosthenes |
oh,
about the Americans. I think they have a mind of their own, and they have their own strategic intentions in the region. There's nothing that Americans want more than to split the Greek nation into pieces, and make it weak like Yugoslavia.
|
| Demosthenes |
It sounds like the only thing motivating your people is a sense of purity which is byproduct of their prejudice against other people in general. Also, their instinctive need to survive is generating images of purity and a delusion of power which they have associated with a great blonde blue eyed Macedonian conqueror which is their direct and untouched ancestor. It reminds me of Nazi propaganda, which had similar beliefs based on the prejudice and suffering of the German working class under the aristocratic circles of Jews and Slavs in Austria. Some Greeks are like that too, but atleast you don't see them writing things about pure blonde Macedonians on public forums.
...and another thing. Don't be scared of any evidence I have brought forward. I understand that it can be hard to accept something, when the exact opposite has been driven into you since you were a child. |
| dejan |
blah blah blah blah |
| Great_Macedonian |
quote edmo: If they are direct descendants of those Slavs who populated the peninsula in 600 A.D., then how can they be the same as the people as those in B.C.
Oh man, I feel like I'm editing your own propaganda, I better leave it and just let everyone laugh.
------------------------------------------
Inace you havent noticed, nobody is claiming to be a pure ancient macedonian or pure slav. Howether wrote that obviously felt more slavic, but the majority of macedonians feel a greater connection to the ancient macedonians. We have told you over and over again, what dont you understand about slavs mixing with ancient macedonians forming the modern macedonian identity!
How can the ancient macedonians be greek when they lived in macedonia! the slavs that came to macedonia mixed with the macedonians!... the slavs that went to greece mixed with the greeks.
Who said that we claim pure descent from anybody? even those idiots that claim macedonians are slavs are brainwashed since its impossible to be pure anything.
I think that was the famous macedonian Gorgi Pulevski you quoted when he stated his ancestry to Alexander the great. The reason why that is used as a quote is to prove that even before the balkan wars the "slav" speaking macedonians felt as descendents of the ancient macedonians.
In Republic of Macedonia the majority of the macedonians acknolegde that they are descendents from the ancient macedonians and slavs. Some claim descent from only one of these groups-which is unrealistic.. howether even if you come across a macedonian who tells you he is of slavic background, even he/she will say that what was left of the ancient macedonians flows through their genes since the slavs of macedonia did not find an empty land when they came there.
What is so ironic is that most greeks have never stepd foot in any part of macedonia, not even greek macedonia yet they think they have more right to claim ancestry from the ancient macedonians. haha. |
| jingibi |
THE WORD GREEK IS NOT A CORRECT DESCRIPTOR FOR ATHENIANS, SPARTANS, THEBANS, THRACIANS OR MACEDONIANS OR ANY HELLENOPHONES AS IT DID NOT EXIST IN B.C.????
Classification
There are enough Thracian examples with characteristic Satem sound-shifts to include Thracian in the Satem group of Indo-European languages. Thracian is often considered to have been on the same language branch as the extinct Dacian language (viewed as a northern dialect of Thracian). Some scholars see a relation between Thracian and the ancient Macedonian language, or the Phrygian language.
Older models often linked Thracian to the Illyrian language, or to the Armenian language, but recent studies do not make such a connection apparent.....
Originally the name Thracia was used in a very loose and vague fashion, and the Macedonians were even sometimes spoken of as a tribe of Thrace, which in that case practically meant the land north arid north-east of Greece. The Macedonians were akin to the Thracians, but came under the influence of Greek civilization earlier. 1 It was not until A.D. 46 that Thrace was incorporated as a province in the Roman empire.
[img]http://www.kimbellart.org/images/thrace_map.jpg[/img]
The Historical Extent of Thracian Settlement
And now about today Macedonians:
The Macedonians are primarily the descendants of the Slavic tribes which settled Macedonia during the Middle Ages. It is presumed by some historians, that these Slavic tribes probably absorbed some indigenous populations that they came upon in the area: Thracians and Illyrians. Later groups such as the Bulgars mixed with the Slavonic-speakers in the region, as stated by the Byzantine chroniclers Theophanes and Nicephorus.
|
| vancom18 |
demosthenes
do you think you will ever change our opinion and that tomorrow we will start claiming whatever you desire?
if you think so, stay and continue the propaganda
although, it wont work with me
it wont work with anyone, so just vanish |
| Demosthenes |
Before the birth of Christ, Macedonia was under Roman occupation, and was later a part of the Greco-Byzantine Empire. Where the term Greek originated. So you could say that Greeks were Roman. But yes, the Hellenic people of Macedon assimilated with the Romans and were later given the name Greeks.
The first thing I found, I jammed it on this forum, what an idiot:
"(1) had indeed enjoyed sufficient economic development and military power to rival both the Greco-Byzantine and Islamic worlds in the Mediterranean basin and would clearly outdistance them in the succeeding two centuries," (Prof. JOHN H. MUNRO, 2005)
"http://www.economics.utoronto.ca/munro5/01medintro.doc"
I've already shown you the other site, it explains everything, and now you want me to waist my time.
|
| Demosthenes |
"(1) the Greco-Byzantine Empire, the successor of the old Roman Empire in the East: centred in what is now Asia Minor, or the country of Turkey: the surviving core of the Ottoman Turkish Empire, with its capital at Constantinople (which later, after 1918, was renamed Istanbul, its current name). "
same source |
| Demosthenes |
If some Slavs are Greek,
If all Greeks were Ottoman,
and some Ottomans were Byzantine,
and all Byzantines were Greco-Roman,
and some Greco-Romans were Hellenic,
and some Hellenes were Macedonian.
Then are Slavs Macedonian? |
| Demosthenes |
here's some art from the early Roman empire.
http://www.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/ule/uleb.html |
| Demosthenes |
Here are some mints that represent the transition from Hellenistic mythology into early christianity.
http://www.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/index.html |
| Demosthenes |
Here are some mints that represent the transition from Hellenistic mythology into early christianity.
http://www.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/index.html
and other things about Hellenistic religion:
However, the Greeks tended to look to Egypt for learning and culture rather than to their own forebears, until at the end of the 6th century there was a new arousal of interest in the old legends of Greece, which were retranslated in a new and more spiritual light, whilst the growth of the Greek cities and Hellenization of the Mediterranean led to the declaration of the divinity of rulers such as Alexander the Great (356-323CE). After the death of Alexander the Great, his successor, Ptolemy I revealed the importance of Egyptian religion to Greece by incorporating the Egyptian cults of Isis and Osiris (now called Serapis) into Greek religion in the 4th century BC. The cult spread rapidly throughout the Mediterranean and from there throughout the Roman Empire, reaching as far from Egypt as Britain, with centres in London and York.
|
| Demosthenes |
another extract:
http://www.library.csi.cuny.edu/siias/romanempire.html
These trends encouraged a general increase in population and wealth, but particularly the growth of cities and the prosperity of their elites. Greco-Roman civilization was primarily an urban civilization, and during this period the Greek-speaking polis (cities) in the East and the Latin-speaking civitas (cities) in the West were to flourish as never before. |
| Demosthenes |
and another:
http://www.library.csi.cuny.edu/siias/greek.html
Divisions are based both on historical events and on artistic styles. 480 represents the last Persian war as well as the beginning of the Early Classical Period. 323 represents the death of Alexander the Great as well as the beginning of the Hellenistic Period, so named because it represents an extension of Hellenic (Greek) culture into the wider Mediterranean world. 31 represents the time when Octavian (later Augustus) gained control as first Roman emperor. |
| Demosthenes |
sorry...no propaganda on our side:
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9245 |
| Demosthenes |
Macedonian wars:
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9049702
It's because educated people know who the Greeks were. |
| Demosthenes |
All we can do is try to help you:
http://www.mfa.gr/english/foreign_policy/ |
| Demosthenes |
[img][/img]c:\byzantine.jpg |
| Demosthenes |
The slavs that came to macedonia mixed with the macedonians. This is true. The Thracians are also Greek, as they did become part of the Roman empire which later became the eastern Byzantine Empire and they are now a part of Greece and they themselves claim to be Greek just like the Greek Macedonians and the Pontians. If you want further historical evidence of the slavic settlement into Macedonia, once again you can go to
http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/HellenicMacedonia/en/A.html
It is good that you are admitting to be Slavs. It is good that you are realising that you are not the same as the Ancient Macedonians. The Ancient Macedonians used the Hellenic language, just as the Byzantine Macedonians used Byzantine Greek and the Modern Macedonians in "Agaen Macedonia" use modern Greek. Once again we can mention that St.Cyrill and his brother St.Methodius also used Byzantine Greek and invented the Cyrillic alphabet for the Slavonic language so we can differentiate between the Slavs and the Greek Macedonians that bordered with them. This Modern Macedonian identity of yours has only existed since 1945 and can have no historical claim on Ancient Macedonian history as the slavic people did not have the Hellenic culture that modern day greeks still do. I'd like to thank the few of you who have recognized that we are the descendants of the ancient Macedonians and I hope the rest of you can fill the gaps in your historical theory and realise that we are true Macedonians.
For the rest of you who are uneducated and are obsessed with this issue and state that you are the only Macedonians you should visit a doctor or a pshychiatrist and he will prescribe the appropriate medication. Have a good life.
|
| Demosthenes |
The following extract can be found here:
http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/HellenicMacedonia/en/A2.2.html
The dark ages (565-867)
Towards the end of the 6th century the Byzantine state was exposed to destructive raids by Slavs, who made their first appearance at this time, and Avars. Apart from the settlement of Slavic tribes in Macedonia during the 7th century in the wake of their penetration as far as southern Greece, these incursions caused the abandonment of towns and economic decline, common occurrences throughout the Empire in the first years of the Middle Byzantine period.
These unprecedented conditions accelerated prolonged internal conflicts that were brought to an end by the introduction of the military-cum-administrative institution of 'themata' (themes). Thus, territorial shrinkage (the setting up of the first Bulgarian state in 681, the Arab expansion in the second half of the 7th century, and the crisis brought on by the Iconoclast controversy) led eventually to a greater uniformity of language, dogma, and culture among the population of Byzantium.
The emergence of a new state under Charlemagne in 800 curtailed Byzantine influence in the old territories of the western Roman world. But in the 9th century the Empire was able to undertake the conversion to Christianity of neighbouring peoples and to exert a cultural influence over them, and so to draw them into both its sphere of political influence and its cultural community, the "Byzantine commonwealth".
|
| ProMKD |
quote:
Originally posted by Demosthenes
For the rest of you who are uneducated and are obsessed with this issue and state that you are the only Macedonians you should visit a doctor or a pshychiatrist and he will prescribe the appropriate medication. Have a good life.
As far as i can see, you are obsessed with this "issue" and you come to Macedonian forums to argue about it. Normal people like myself realize that there is no issue here. We are the only Macedonians. We are not psychiatrists and we cannot sit here and read your whiny posts. |
| Demosthenes |
I understand, you dont want to read. That would explain a few things. Like me saying it was Cyrillic when it was in fact Glagonic, my mistake.
THERE IS ONLY ONE MAKEDONJA. CONQUERERS OF THE BACKYARD TOILET. TSIGANI, VLACHS, ALBANIANS AND BULGARS. WE WILL CONQUER ASIA AGAIN LIKE OUR MACEDONIAN ANCESTORS. WE ARE PURE MACEDONIANS, BLONDE LIKE ALEXANDER EXACTLY THE SAME, WE SPEAK SLAV, WE ARE NOT GREEK. |
| Demosthenes |
I understand, you dont want to read. That would explain a few things. Like me saying it was Cyrillic when it was in fact Glagonic, my mistake.
THERE IS ONLY ONE MAKEDONJA. CONQUERERS OF THE BACKYARD TOILET. TSIGANI, VLACHS, ALBANIANS AND BULGARS. WE WILL CONQUER ASIA AGAIN LIKE OUR MACEDONIAN ANCESTORS. WE ARE PURE MACEDONIANS, BLONDE LIKE ALEXANDER EXACTLY THE SAME, WE SPEAK SLAV, WE ARE NOT GREEK. |
| DJ_SHEMA |
Mnogos_serres
Show me where was greece before 1830, but before let's say 0 a.d |
| Demosthenes |
[c:][/byzantine.jpg] |
| Pro Patria 2 |
go and have fun my "friend".U can't say i'm not Macedonian 'cos i'm.
Macedonian from R.Macedonia |
| Great_Macedonian |
Demosthenes you need to get a life.
You think that we adimt to been slavs??? WTF? i think some bulgarian infiltrators on this forum are trying to give you a "pro bulgar-slavic-tatar" origin of the macedonians.
We are descendents of the ancient macedonians.. we adimt that some slavs mixed with us, but they mixed with greeks too. So if your gonna call me slav-macedonian ill call you slav-greek, deal?
Stop talking about Cyril And Metodi(ous).. i suppose you think they were greek too?? hahaha ur an idiot.
If modern macedonians have some ancient macedoian ancestry, modern greeks have none! GET IT TROL!
MACEDONIA TO THE MACEDONIANS.
|
| Demosthenes |
yeah,
you're still too stupid to realise that all Macedonians were given the name Grekoi under the Roman Empire, along with the Athenians, Thracians etc. The Byzantine Empire is more accurately known as the Graeco Byzantine Empire as it is the same as the Graeco Roman east were Hellenic language and culture was dominant. All you have shown is a zoom in map of the region of Macedonia, Thracia etc. and pretended that it is seperate to Greece.
As for you as Macedonians, since 1945 that's all. Once again, you are using a current geographical context to describe that ancient land and you left out, the Hellenic Empire, the Graceo Roman Empire etc. and now you think its ok to speak some Slav shit and deny that Macedonians were ever Greek. Your new Macedonian identity will be short lived. |
| wolf_pack |
Demo chill my man, do u drink tequilla?:)
quote:
Originally posted by Demosthenes
As for you as Macedonians, since 1945 that's all. Once again, you are using a current geographical context to describe that ancient land and you left out, the Hellenic Empire, the Graceo Roman Empire etc. and now you think its ok to speak some Slav shit and deny that Macedonians were ever Greek. Your new Macedonian identity will be short lived.
Opaa, ova kaj se raspravavme za topikot so Karadgaferis, sea ke dojde OooOo da kazhe ok e sve toa, daj da olabaveme nie 'najpametnite Makedonci"[:D]
btw Demo, There is only one MACEDONIA[;)] |
| Demosthenes |
The only one that drinks tequila is the American slave. A cool person covers his eyes because he is blind.
Why don't you translate that sentence for me? |
| wolf_pack |
quote:
Originally posted by Demosthenes
The only one that drinks tequila is the American slave.
Isn't that what we all are these days?:)
quote:
Originally posted by Demosthenes
Why don't you translate that sentence for me?
It was directed to someone else in the forum that could potentially have a glass of wine with you and Mr. Karagaferis[:D] |
| Demosthenes |
MAKEDONJA....[V] hicup......MAKEDONJA!!!![V] hicup |
| Demosthenes |
still no ideas from the Macedonia slaves, just we are Macedonian. What a strong case you have. |
| wolf_pack |
A Greek and (in this case) MACEDONIAN have a conversation at a bar. The Greek says: "You know, us Greeks invented sex". The Macedonian replies: "Well, we transferred it to women".[8D] |
| toni_a |
Wolf ,pred maloletnici ne se raskazhuvaat vakvi vicovi...gledash nemozhe da te razbere [:D][:D] |
| Pro Patria 2 |
abe ignorirajte go neogreko-ciganov.Kutriot ne znae deka e dojden od Etiopija i deka nema nikakva vrska so naprednata anticka helenska civilizacija.Samo budala moze da poveruva deka denesnive grci se potomci na antickite filozofi kako Platon,Aristotel,Sokrat...
Hey my greko-gypsy "friend" u should know more abouth your origin.Ask at the Oxford university and they will tell u more. |
| Great_Macedonian |
ok faggot, tell us what you want proof from and ill put some time aside to teach you the truth.
You have to be specific... what kind of questions do you want answered? do you want ancient quotes which prove ancient macedonians were not greek? do you want proof that we have been macedonians before 1945 -idiot.
what do you want proof from and ill get it for you! |
| SERREOS |
Demosthenes, was an Athenian propaganda writer, even in modern day Greece, the Macedonians and the Athenians are not far from enemies in ideology.
Like we said lets stay on objective evidence, as history is a study of objectivity.
1) Can you show me a small translation from one of your Byzantine manuscripts that directly speaks of the "Macedonian" orthodox church under the Byzantine Empire as seperate to that of the Greek orthodox church, or some proof that the Macedonians were not considered Greeks under the Byzantine Empire. This would be leading to some sort of argument for your sake.
2) Prove that the Macedonians did not assimilate with their Roman conquerors. They in fact adopted parts of Latin in the Hellenic language that they used.
3) Prove that any Macedonians existed outside of the Greaco Roman empire, or the Eastern Roman Empire that later turned into the Byzantine Empire. Prove that the Macedonians used any language apart from Hellenic/Greek in that time.
4) Prove that Greek Macedonians today are any different to the Byzantine Macedonians.
...and a few questions outside of the objective evidence, why aren't your people agreeing with eachother? and don't say that it was Bulgarians, because you are contradicting eachother. Why haven't you outlined a clear historical path from ancient times till now and we have. You are stuck in ancient times were the city states and Macedonia and Thrace had not united yet under one name. That's beyond the point. Macedonians have been considered Greek for a long time. oh, and show what you have before 1945, lets say...or before 6th century...if you can. Because I have, and all you can do is curse and spit. I'm telling you, don't waste your time, it's obvious. All your people know is that they're Macedonians and thats it. Second generation legacy, old wives tales.
...and stop deleting my accounts, I've registered 3 times. |
| SERREOS |
from:
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Greeks
Greeks in Ancient History
In Latin literature, Gr#230;ci (or Greeks, in English) is the name by which Hellenes are known.
Aristotle and Apollodorus first write about Graikoi, who seem to be the same people as Selloi from Epirus. The name becomes known to Latins with the colonization of Italy from Greek settlers. While Greeks call themselves Hellenes, the Romans begin to call them Gr#230;ci, the name of the specific Greek colonists.
During the Roman era, and especially after Christianity became the official religion of the empire, the name Hellene came to be associated with the pre-Christian religion, and fell out of use. The Greeks, who were now citizens of the Roman Empire, called themselves Roman, or Rhomaioi. This usage has remained into modern times as a familiar word for Greek.
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| SERREOS |
...After the fall of the West Roman Empire in 395 AD and the beginning of the Middle Ages in Western Europe the Latin term for the Greeks is used broadly. In East Roman Empire a change takes place. While in general the citizens of the Byzantine Empire are called Romans, the Greeks assume the name Gr#230;co to distinguish themselves from the rest of the Byzantines. After the Schism the name Gr#230;co meant orthodox and Latin meant Catholic. After a while the two terms assumed a national character as well.
After the independence of the modern Greek state from the Ottoman Empire the term Gr#230;co or Greek was abandoned totally by the Greeks themselves. The new country was officially named "Hellenic republic" (or Hellas) and the people "Hellenes". In many countries the modern Hellenes are called Greeks and their country Greece, while in other countries, especially in Asia, they are called Yunan and their country Yunanistan, from the Turkish word Yunan, derived from the Greek geographical term Ionia. In Turkey, Greeks from Greece are called Yunan, but ethnic Greeks in Turkey are called Rum, from Greek Rhomaioi.
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| SERREOS |
there...clear and meditated. |
| dejan |
Oh i bet. |
| Great_Macedonian |
to the ADMINISTRATOR, stop banning the greek.
Demo... your questions create a "destortion" which is irrelevent when proving ones identity.
For example, you want proof of the macedonian orthodox church. The 'Ohrid Archiepiscopate' is the predeseccor of the macedonian orthodox church and is older than the serbian and bulgarian orthodox churches, and perjaps the greek one also.
Click here to read about it http://www.ohrid.org.mk/eng/istorija/arhiep.htm
You know i was going to waste my time finding specific quotes to prove many things to you, but why should i? thats not going to change the way you think anyway.. just read this following article to bring a few things to light:
Why is Greece Stealing the Macedonian History?
Historian and Professor Eugene Borza who is credited as "Macedonian specialist" by the American Philological Association, and who have done extensive studies regarding the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians, had also presented in-depth analysis on the modern Greek position which claims that the ancient Macedonians "were Greek". In his In the Shadow of Olympus (p.91-92) Borza writes:
"Thus, long before there was a sufficient ancient evidence to argue about the ethnic identity--as revealed by language--of the ancient Macedonians, there emerged a "Greek" position claiming that the Macedonian language was Greek, and that thus the inhabitants were Greek."
The modern Greeks have therefore, developed a position that the Macedonians were Greek, long before there was sufficient ancient evidence to argue about their ethnicity. Yet although modern historiography had long abandoned this prematurely established "Greek" position, modern Greeks are still its most zealous defenders despite the overwhelming evidence available today, which overwhelmingly shows that the Macedonians were not Greeks but a distinct nation. Borza continues:
"For example, recent work describes the funerary stelae found in the tumulus covering the royal tombs at Vergina. These stelae date from the fourth and early third centuries, and the preponderance of names are Greek… The excavator of Vergina, Manolis Andronikos, in a useful summary of the epigraphic evidence, writes: "In the most unambivalent way this evidence confirms the opinion of those historians who maintain that the Macedonians were a Greek tribe, like all the others who lived on Greek territory, and shows that the theory that they were of Illyrian or Thracian descent and were hellenized by Philip and Alexander rests on no objective criteria." Manolis Andronikos Vergina:The Royal Tombs, 83-85."
Here is Borza’s answer to the Greek archeologist Manolis Andronikos:
"This argument is true enough only as far as it goes. It neglects that the hellenization of the Macedonians might have occurred earlier then the age of Philip and Alexander, and can not therefore serve as a means of proving the Macedonians were a Greek tribe."
Indeed, not only Andronakis was obviously wrong to conclude that the Macedonians were Greek, but also notice how the Greek archeologist does not point that the Macedonians might have been a separate nation. Instead he prefers to call it if not Greek, either Illyrian or Thracian, two ancient nations that can not be associated with the Balkans politics surrounding Greece, resulted from the 1913 partition of Macedonia (see below). Also notice how Andronikos used the term "like all the others who lived on Greek territory". It’s like he wants to convince the reader that Macedonia has always been a "Greek territory", which is exactly what he uses as a base for his inaccurate conclusion.
Another Greek writer, Michael Sakellariou, in his Macedonia 4000 years of Greek History, 44-63 (quite questionable of accuracy title to begin with), "proves" that the "Macedonians were Greek" although he purposely avoided all evidence that does not suit such conclusion. Borza has a line for him as well:
"It is indicative of the strength of Badian’s case that his critics have succeeded only in nit-picking: e.g., Sakellariou, Macedonia, 534-35 nn. 52.53" (Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus p.96.)
Borza is talking about Ernst Badian from Harvard University who in his extensive research Greeks and Macedonians presented all evidence and soundly concluded that the Macedonians were distinct nation from the Greeks, which neither considered themselves to be Greeks nor were considered by the Greeks to be Greek. That is precisely what the Greek writer Sakellariou had completely and purposely avoided, and lacking any base for a well-balanced criticism, choused instead to nit-pick Badian's argument.
We can see a trend among the Greek scholars (Andronicos, Martis, Daskalakis, Kallaris, and Sakellariou) who desperately want to show the world that the Macedonians "were Greeks", though unsuccessfully. Martis' Falsification of Macedonian History was handed out to the foreign journalists in Greece and translated into many languages. Sakellariou’s Macedonia 4000 years of Greek History was even donated for free to the libraries throughout the United States. This exposes a well-developed propaganda strategy, to influence all those unaware that the "Macedonians were Greek." Yet the Greeks are showing the world that the "Macedonians were Greek" by avoiding all ancient and modern evidence that does not suit their purpose, and in that process they try to pass books so full of historical errors and distortions:
"The fullest statement of the "Greek" position, and also the most detailed study of the Macedonian language, is by Kallaris, Les anciens Macidoniens, esp. 2: 488-531, in which alleged Greek elements in the Macedonian language are examined exhaustively. A more chauvinistic (and less persuasive) point of view can be found in Daskalakis, Hellenism, esp. pts. 2. and 3. The most blatant account is that of Martis (The Falsification of Macedonian History). This book, written by a former Minister for Northern Greece, is an polemical anti-Yugoslav tract so full of historical errors and distortions that the prize awarded it by the Academy of Athens serves only to reduce confidence in the scientific judgment of that venerable society of scholars. The most sensible and scholarly Greek position is that laid out by Sakellariou, in Macedonia, 44-63. Lest it seem, however, that the "Greek" position is held only by modem Greeks" - (Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus p.91)
It is ironical that the book of the former Greek politician Nicolas Martis is named The Falsification of Macedonian History, when in fact he is the one who is falsifying the history of Macedonia with his historical errors and distortions. It is worrisome that the students of the countries who have nothing to do with the modern Greek politics, must be exposed to the Greek historical fabrications against one of the most dynamic powers of the ancient times - the Macedonians. But why is Greece doing this, what is behind it, why do they steal the history of the ancient Macedonians, and attempt to appropriate it as theirs?
The answer lays in the year of 1913 when Macedonia was partitioned after the Balkan wars and Greece swallowed the biggest part - 51%. There was nothing in Macedonia then that connected that land with Greece, apart from the small 10% Greek minority scattered in southern Macedonia among the overwhelming majority of Macedonians who lived throughout the country (for complete statistical evidence see the "Macedonian-Greek Conflict"). Since in 1913 it acquired foreign territory populated by non-Greeks, Greece had to provide a link that would justify its claim on that half of Macedonia. That is exactly why the Greeks claim that the ancient Macedonians "were Greek", so that if in ancient times there was a Greek tribe (Macedonians) living in Macedonia, then that land therefore is Greek (just like Andronikos points above). What is not disputable however, is that since 1913 till today, the modern Greek state continues to oppress the ethnic Macedonians who now find themselves living in Greece (see Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International evidenced in the "Macedonians in Greece"). The other northern part of Macedonia, today’s Republic of Macedonia, broke out of Yugoslavia and became independent in 1991. That brought addition fuel to the Greek nationalists who are afraid now that one part of the ethnic Macedonian nation is independent, the partition of 1913 can be seen as illegal, which could lead to eventual loss of their Greek Macedonian part and subsequent reunification of one Macedonia. That is exactly why they claim that there is no modern Macedonian nation, not in Greece not anywhere, and continue to deny the basic human rights of their Macedonian minority through politics filled with paranoia, politics which without the revision of the ancient history could not breathe.
Bibliography
1. Michael Sakellariou, Macedonia 4000 years of Greek History
2. Nikolaos Martis, The Falsification of Macedonian History Nicolaos Martis
3. Kallaris, Les anciens Macidoniens
4. Daskalakis, Hellenism
5. Manolis Andronikos, Vergina:The Royal Tombs
6. Eugene Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus
If thats not enough, hang on ill find some more things for you, as i said im not going to waste my time looking for specific proof just for you, unlike you greeks we macedonians are not obsessed with pissing on other peoples culture.
Here is one document which shows the continued existance of the macedonians for over 2500years and directly links modern macedonians (not greeks) to the ancient macedonians:
Documents of the Continued Existence of Macedonia and the Macedonian Nation for a period of over 2500 years
What follows are documents that speak of the continued existence of Macedonia and of the Macedonian nation through the last 25 centuries. Macedonia is clearly distinguished from Greece (Hellas), Thrace, Illyria, Bulgaria, Serbia, and the Macedonians are likewise distinguished as distinct nation from the Greeks, Thracians, Illyrians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Albanians, as nation which continued to exist and survive trough the centuries (makedonika.org).
500 B.C. - 500 A.D.
Macedonia and the Macedonians as distinct nation in the works of the ancient Greek, Roman, and Jewish historians, as well in the works of the modern German, French, English, American historians.
586 A.D.
From the "Miracles of St. Demetrius of Salonika, I ": "...For if one was to imagine them in a heap, not only the Macedonians gathered in Salonika... Certainly he who inspired the Macedonians with courage..." Mirac. I, 13, p.1285-14; 1313
758-759 A.D.
From the Chronographia of Theophanes the Confessor "That year Constantine plundered the Sclavinii throughout Macedonia and subjugated the rest." Theoph., I, p.430, 21-22.
From the Chronographia Tripertita by Anastasius Bibliothecarius: "In the eighteenth year of his reign, Constantine enslaved the Sclavinii of Macedonia and he subjugated the rest." A. B., p.282, 20-21.
8th Century
From Strabonos Epithomatus: "And now, in that way almost all of Epirus, Hellada, the Peloponnese and Macedonia have also been settled by the Skiti-Slavs." C. Muller, Geographi graeci minores, Paris 1882, p.574.
821-823 A.D.
From the letter of Michael II to the honorable Ludwig: "Thomas...having gathered our barges and dromon, had the opportunity to arrive in (some) parts of Thrace and Macedonia." Mansi, Michaelis Belbi et Theophilii....Florentinae, 1759
904
From On the Capture of Salonika by John Cametinae: "...I introduce you to the same, the great and the first city of the Macedonians..." J.K. Begunov, Kozma Prezviter v slavjanskih literaturah, Sofia 1976, p. 297
First half of 10th C.
From On the Themes by Constantine Porphyrogenitus: "... So from a kingdom Macedonia turned into a province and now it has reached the position of a theme and strategy." C. Porfirogenito, De thematibus, Citta del Vaticano, 1952.
986
From the History of Leo the Deacon: "...since they robbed the region of the Macedonians mercilessly, destroying all adults.". Leonis Diaconi Historiae, Paris 1864, p. 311.
1041
From the Annals of Bari: "...he had already written to Sicily from where the unfortunate Macedonians, Paulicians and Calbrians arrived." G.H. Pertz, Annales Barenses, Monumenta Germaniae historica, Scriptores V, p.53.
1064
From the Chronicle of John Zonaras: "The Uzians...invaded Macedonia and plundered it, and reached Hellada". Ioannis Zonorae Epitomae historiarum, Vol. VIII, Ed. Th. Buttner-Wobst, Bonnae 1897, p.678.
1072-1073
From the History of Necephorus Vryenius: "...for the Scythians were carrying out sudden attacks in Thrace and Macedonia." Nicephori Bryenii commentarii, Ed. A. Meicke, Bonnae 1836, p.100, 102.
1083-1085
From De expeditione Yerosolymitana by Radulfo Cadonis: "...Beomund Guiscard sailed across the Adriatic and occupied Macedonia." Tancredi in expeditione Yerosolymitana ....Paris, 1854, p.499.
c. 1106
From the letter of Theophylactes of Ohrid to Gregorius Camaterus: "...do not retain such a man in the narrow regions of our Macedonia...". Theophylacti, col. 496, B-C.
Beginning of 12th Century
From the Byzantine satire Timarion: "The day of Saint Demetrius in (Salonika) is as great a festival as the Panathinei in Athens or Panionii in Miletus; it is a grand Macedonian celebration in which not only the Macedonian people gather, but people of all sorts and from all directions: Greeks from different regions of Hellada, the Mizian tribes...". Vizantiiski Vremenik, Moscow VI 1953, p. 367.
1185
"Woe, woe, the city of Salonika is captured, I say, the metropolis of the Macedonians." Ephraimi Chronologici caesares; Ed. J.P. Migne - PG 143 , Paris 1891, p.198.
Beginning of 13th C.
From the synod records of the Ohrid Archibishopric: "Ioannis Ierakar by birth Macedonian". J. Pitra, Analacta sacra et classica specilegio Solesmensi parta, t. VI Juris ecclesiastici graecorum selecta paralipomena. Parissis et Romae 1891, col. 315.
1246
Ser was one a large city, but the Bulgarian Ivan had demolished when besieging it and other Macedonian cities. Georgii Acropolitae Opera, Recensuit A. Haisenberg vol. I, Lipsiae 1903, p.74-75, 77
1282-1321
...that king's alliance is certain and unanswering, just as long as he can settle near to Macedonia. While he was spending his time on these (matters), the protostrator Theodore Sinadinus, once freed from the West, arrived in Byzantium. He governed Prilep, the neighbouring regions and the lower Macedonian towns. Ioan Cantacuzeni Historiarum libri IV, Ed. J.P.Migne - PG Paris 1866, p.94
1305
At the battle of Apros in 1305 there were five syntaxeis, differentiated by ethnicity: the Alans and Tourkopouloi in the van, followed by the Macedonians, the Anatolians, the Vlach infantry and the Thelematarioi. The Late Byzantine Army. Mark C. Bartusis 1992. p.256
1326
...I beleive you know that Strimon...is the largest of all those that biscet Thrace and Macedonia... Nicephore Gregoras, Correspondence. Paris 1927, p.30-50.
Middle 14th C.
...Stefan became king of the Tribals. After he had set off from the region of the Ionian Sea, he razed Epidamnus to the ground, went into Macedonia and made Skopje the capital... The king left the city of Skopje, taking with him men experienced in battle and a strong army and subordinated to his rule the places in the vicinity of Kastoria. Then having moved camp, he subjugated all of Macedonia, except for Terma... Laonici Chalcocondiae Historiarum. Ed. J. P. Migne - PG t.CLIX (Paris, 1866) col. 36, B-37, C.
1349
(Code of) the honorable and Christ-loving Macedonian Tsar Stefan, Serbian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Dalmation, Arbanasian, Hungarian Wallachian and indipendent ruler of many other regions and lands... Lj. Stojanovic, Stari srpski zapisi i natpisi. Knj. III, Beograd 1905, p. 41 (nbr.4949).
Middle of the 14th C.
A Slav inscription from the church of St. George at Upper Kozjak in which a man called Bratan signs himself as being from Macedonia. Z. Rosolkovska-Nikolovska, Crkvata Sv. Georgi vo Goren Kozjak vo svetlinata na novite ispituvanja - Zbornik "Kiril Solunski", Kn. I, Skopje, MANU 1970, p. 222.
15th C.
I remember the great subordination under which the Turk holds the emperor in Constantinople and all the Greeks, Macedonians and Bulgarians....As I said earlier, there are many Christians who are forced to serve the Turk, such as Greeks, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Albanians, Esclavinians, Rasians and Serbians... Bertrand de la Brocuiere, Putovanje preko mora, Beograd 1950, p.134-135, 140-141.
13th Century - 15th Century
Byzantine historians of the Palaiologan period (13th Century - 15th Century) rarely make any distinction more specific then "Thrace" and "Macedonia". Thus we read of the "Thracians" and "Macedonians", the "Thracian and Macedonian armies", the "army" or "forces from Thrace and Macedonia"… For these historians the border between the two areas was the Nestos River or Kavalla. To the west was Macedonia to the east was Thrace. The Late Byzantine Army. Mark C. Bartusis 1992. p.65
1461-1462
When the enemy forces are battered, no one doubts that the whole of Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Epirus, Thessaly, Greece or Attica and the Peloponnese will return to the faithful....Inspired by this example the Thessalians, the Greeks, the Poloponnesians, the Epirans and the Macedonians will all rebel and will win ... Jovan Radonic, Gjurac Kastriot Skenderbeg i Arbanija u XV veku - Spomenik XCV (1942), p. 128-129.
August 8th, 1470.
The Sultan stopped and spent the night ...in afield that represented the Macedonian border...The River Vardar is nearby, which flows through Macedonia...of which some are Greeks, others Macedonians, Wallachs and even Italians, as well as other nations....Greeks and Macedonians live there... Gio Mario degli Angiolelo, A. Matkovski i P. Angelkova, Nekolku kratki patopisi za Makedonija, Glasnik na INI, VXI/1 (1972), p. 246-247.
1557
...It is located in Thessaly, which borders on Macedonia, where the plague has reduced much of the population... Nbljudeni na mnozhestvo redki i zabelezhitelni neshta, videni v Grcija, Azija, Judea, Egipet, Arabia i drugi chuzhdi strani ot Pierre Belon d'Man, Sofia 1953, p.132-133; Frenski patepisi za Balkanite, XV-XVIII v. Sofia 1975, p. 95-98.
1566
...called Jakov; I laboured for much time and many years for this work (in order to contribute) to the holy books. I came out of Macedonia, my fatherland, and I entered.... Lj. Stojanovich, Stari srpski zapisi i natpisi I, p. 203-204.
1579
German ruler Rudolph II to the Pope: ..the deliverer of this letter, don Petar Crnovic...born in Salonika and the other parts of Macedonia... A. Theiner, Vitera monumenta Slavorum meridionalium illustrantia. II. Zagrabiae 1875, p. 70.
1589
Gavril, Archbishop of Ohrid to Archduke Ferdinand of Habsburg: ...the Turk, who from day to day has pursued and blackmailed us and our ancestors ....in the whole of Macedonia, Greece and the nearby countries...then among our countries we have Bulgaria, Serbia, Macedonia, Oltenia... Landesregierungsarchive - Innsbruck, VI 50.
1593
Project by Alexander Komulovic to expel the Ottomans from the Balkans ...In other parts of Epirus and Macedonia almost all are Christians of the Greek ritual... Biblioth. Barberiana cod. mnc. LVIII, 33, - Starine (Zagreb), Knj. XIV (1882), p. 86-87.
August 11th, 1607
The Duke of Savoy, Charles Emmanuel I, sends his own man of trust to Macedonia. ...who had arrived from Albania and Macedonia... V. Makrusev, Istoriski spomenici Juznih Slovena i okolnih naroda, Beograd 1882, p. 297-299.
April 6-24, 1618
(Senato Secreta. 337. Macedonia) ...The nobility of Macedon do not wish to have anything to do with the king of Spain... Calendar of State Papers and Manuscripts relating to English Affairs existing in the Archives and Collections of Venice and other libraries in Northern Italy, London 1864, Vol XV, p. 201-202.
1624
A letter from Pope Urban VIII to the Archbishop of Ohrid, Porphyrius Palaelogus To the respected brothers Porphyrius Paleologus, Patriarch of Justiniana Prima of Ohrid and the other subordinate archbishops, bishops of Bulgaria, Serbia, Albania and of the other side of Macedonia. A. Theiner, Vetera monumenta Slavorum II, (Zagrebiae 1875), p. 123.
1690
Manifesto of the Austrian Emperor Leopold I to the Nations of the Balkans ...Therefier we kindly call all the people who live throughout Albania, Servia, Mysia, Bulgaria, Silistria, Illyria, Macedonia and Rashka... J. Radonjic and M. Kostic, Srpske privilegije od 1690 do 1792. SAN, Posebna izdanja CCXXV, Beograd 1954, p. 26-27.
April 26th, 1690
Letter of protection from Leopold I. ...This is to inform you that two Macedonians, Marko Kraida born in Kosana and Dimitri Georgi Popovic, born in Macedonian Salonika, have told us that the Macedonian people, with respect for our most righteous task, with devotion and zeal towards our service....we graciously accept them under our imperial and royal mercy and in any case and way the above mantioned Macedonian people, cordially recommending to each and all of our willing commanders not to attack the Macedonian people....Issued in Vienna, April 26th, 1690. Representatives: defenders of the Macedonian people.... J. Radonic, Prilozi za istoriju Srba u Ungarskoj u XVI, XVII and XVIII veku. Knj. I, Matice srpske, nbr 25 and 26, Novi Sad 1908, p. 52-53.
1704
The French treveller and writer Paul Luca on Macedonia ...and hour after midnight for Kavalla, which is six miles away and once was a large Macedonian city by the sea coast. We should note that almost all the villages in Macedonia are full of Christians and there are few Turks. A. Matkovski and P. Angelakova, Patuvanjata na francuskiot petepisec Pol Luka niz Makedonija od 1704 do 1714-Istorija v/2 (1969). p. 101.
End of 18th C.
Reports by the French Consul in Salonika, Felix de Beaujour, about Macedonia. The pashalik of Salonika includes the whole of Lower Macedonia and covers 700 sq. miles....it must be noted that here I am only speaking about the most populated part of Macedonia; since Upper Macedonia and Epirus are less populated....In Macedonia, as in Poland, the peasants die from hunger, while the masters live in abundance of gold... Felix de Beaujour, Voyage militaire dans l'Empire Othoman, I, Paris 1829, p. 127-128. n.1; p.130, 132.
1821
Macedonians pertecipate in the Romanian uprising ...At that time there was a man they called Sludzar Todor who urged all the foreigners (mostly Macedonians) to rebel against the boyar... Marko K. Cepenkov, Makedonsko narodno tvoreshtvo, Kn. X, Skopje 1972, p.308
1846
...I learnt the Slav alphabet from my father Makedonski, who calls himself so because we are Macedonians, and not Greeks.... Georgija Makedonski, Bogosluzhbena kniga "Opshti minej" - vo crkvata vo s. Radibush, Kriva Palanka, posledna nepagirana stranica.
1851
Bulgarian Comments on the language of J.H. Dzinot ...May the inhabitants of Skopje and those who speak similarly forgive me, but they do not understand our language and cannot speak either... "Bolgarski", Tsarigradski Vestnik, nbr. 55 (6.X.1851, p. 19).
1858
Education in Veles ....Archbishop Antim declared to his peers that all peoples have been enlightened by the Greeks and so it is necessary that Greek should be taught in the schools of Veles, and not Macedonian, since the children alrady know their own language from their home... J. N. Iz Velesa u Makedoniji: Srbski Dnevnik, nbr. 44 (1858) (according to Branislav Vraneshevic, Vojvodinska javnost, p. 320-321).
1865
A note from the priest Demetrius: In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, I, priest Demetrius, was born in the village of Ogut, in the Kriva Palanka region. and held the services in my native village, when in the year of our Lord 1848, the champions of the town of Kriva Palanka employed me as a priest against the will of His Grace, the Greek priest Kir Gavrail. Mr. Mikhail Makedonski interceded most in favor of my appointment, because I'm a Macedonian by birth and hold the services in the Slav language. Such was the Fate of my fatherland Macedonia, to suffer from the Greeks, so that they will not give us peace even today, although everyone knows that Macedonia is an older state then their kingdom. We had our own Slav educators, Cyril and Methodius, who left us our Slav alphabet. They were Macedonians born in Salonika, the glorious capital of Macedonia. Our Greek bishop does not admit this, so we do not want him to be our priest, but we want to have our own arch-priest, a Slav, for time everlasting. Amen. Zapis vo knigata Zitie Svetih vo Krivopalaneckata crkva. Pretposledna nepagirana strana.
January 28, 1867
To the Editor of "Makedonija" newspaper: ...The Greeks and the greacomans have met the newspaper with sorrow, since they always tried to hellenize the Macedonians, destroying also the Archibishopric of Ohrid -The Spark of Our Future. Yet, however hard they have tried to stop us from making progress, they could not entirely uproot the feelings of the Macedonians that they are Macedonians. T.I. Kusev, Makedonija, Istanbul, Nbr. I (1/28/1867)
March 25, 1870
...lets us consider those of the present Macedonians who blinded by concealed glow of Hellenic wisdom, accept that they should scorn and revoke their own nationality...the time seems opportune for me to exclaim:Ah, how far away the time really is when Hellas, as everybody calls her today, was subjected to Macedonian authority... Stefan Zahariev, Chitalishte, Istanbul, I/7, 1871, p.214-216.
November 30, 1870
...A teacher named Mr. Shapkarevic...has come to visit me...the same day the books you had sent me...arrived. But as soon as he saw them he said that they should not be taught in the Macedonian schools, since they were in the Bulgarian dialect; and that we should take his books which are in the Macedonian dialect... Pravo of 10/30/1870 (according to B. Koneski, Kon Makedonskata prerodba, p.68).
February 1874
A letter from P.R. Slaveykov to the Bulgarian Exarch: Your Grace, I arrived in Salonika on the evening of the 14th of last month (January 1874). I immediately went to meet all the important local people and some others from the other Macedonian towns. My aim was to gather information as son as possible on what was to be necessary for the succes of the mission with which you had entrusted me. I first met Father Averkij Zografski, and the following day Father Petar Dimitrov as well, the local president of the community. I may inform you, Your Grace, that the wind from here, from Salonika, blows and scatters to all sides. These two clergyman, to my mind, are the leaders of the movement fot the restoration of the Archbishopric of Ohrid, although one should not neglect Ohrid and to certain extent Bitola, Veles and Skopje either. The Uniate movement here is not without roots, as they think in Constantinople, especially His Grace, Count Ignatiev. During the time I have been in Macedonia I have ascertained the same we had formerly known and written three years ago. Now, as then or twenty years ago, we are dealing with the Macedonian question. In talks with few Macedonian "patriots" I have understood that this movement, which had been only bare words till a few years ago, is now clear and precise thought - "The Macedonians are not Bulgarians" and they persistenly strive, regardless of the price, to obtain a separate church of their own.
They also have the support in their separatism of smoe high clergyman in Constantinople, especially His Grace Nathaniel Ohridski, Panariot Plovdivski, and Archimandrite Hariton Karpuzov. I have understood this month from reliable sources that there are letters which arrive every day from Constantinople to the Salonika community, and are then sent to the other communities in the provinces. The letters are written in this spirit. One such letter, which the Salonika community sent to the community of Voden, calls upon the inhabitants of Voden to break off all their relations with theExarchate until the Macedonian Church question is settled, because "now is the moment". Mr. Kuzman Shapkarev from Ohrid, who is well known to us, has done a great deal to spread the idea of the restoration of the Archbishopric of Ohrid; he consatnly travels between Kukish and Ohrid and v.v., but at whose expanse, I do not know. Mr. Dimitar Makedonski, "the Macedonian textbook writer", is no less active, reciving salary as a teacher from the Exarchate and from local Lazarists.
Owing to such unreasonable sermons by the Macedonian patriots that the church question has been settled only in favor of the Bulgarians, there is discontent among the people towrds the eparchies of th4 Danube and Adrianople vilayets as well as envy because of the earlier awakening of the Bulgarians. One can especially feel a great resistance against the East Bulgarian variant in literature. A general impression is that the local people think that the Macedonians have been done a great harm with the settlement of the church question in favor of the Danubian and Thracian Bulgarians. This discontent has already grown into distrust of the Exarchate and its higher echalons. and there is an attitude formed that the local Macedonian dialect should be declared a literary language and a Macedonian hiearchy established.
Great attention, Your Grace, should be paid to His Grace Nathaniel, who promised the local people taht as soon as he comes to his eparchy he will take steps for the restoration of the Archbishopric of Ohrid. He seems to be connected with the Macedonian craftsman in Constantinople, among whom he spreads the news about the agreement with the Patriarchate. For their own part they inform their own people in Macedonia about this. It causes great discontent here. Consequently, separatism has its roots in the secret circle of Constantinople. If you press them there, the commotion wil calm down here. Silence the trumpet, there won't be any echo!
The question of Father Nil is a highly delicate one, because he has barricaded himself in Kukush and does not want to return. His ambition seems to have made him to this. He stuffed his head with the thought of becoming the Archbishop of Ohrid ar at least Metropolitan of Salonika. As an Exarchate delegate he spreads the news about the agreement with the Patriarchate as the " most informed person". He decribes the Exarchate to the people as indifferent and passive in saving the Macedonian population from Greek spiritual slavery. Father Nil, who proved to be completely immature, seems to be a hireling of the highest Turkish vilayet authorities. However, his disobidiance to his headquarters began at the moment when he was summoned to return to Constantinople. Instead of obeying orders, he remained waiting there. His disobidiance also comes as a result of the suggestions that have been arriving from Constatinople. He maintains constant relations with Bishop Panaret and Nathaniel especially with the latter, who has suggested he stay in Macedonia until he gets an appointment for Ohrid and arrives in Macedonia. I think that Father Nil should be cast out of Macedonia at any cost and sent to Constatinople, because he is dangerous here. He already acts under the protection of the local Lazarists and the French consul.
Thoughts of the restoration of the Archbishop of Ohrid at the moment are most prevalent here, in Salonika. Here the schemes are being devised and here the hotheads are gathering. These thoughts of course are not based upon mature foundation, especially since Midhat-Pasha has been dismissed from Salonika. But they are gradually spreading to northern Macedonia, although they are not very clear. Some say one thing to the people and others say another. There is danger, if steps are not taken from spme authoritative place, of creating a genral ideal. Then the consequences would be much more serious. The best thing would be if His Grace, Count Ignatiev, were to visit Macedonia, because the population feels a secret hope thet only Russia could help them.
Tomorrow, with Gos's help, I intend to meet some of the elders from the local community. I shall try to convince them of the groundlessnes of their aspirations for a separarte Church when they already have one in the form of the Exarchate. Certainly the most difficult question will be that of the appointment of bishops of Macedonian origin and especially that of the cheirotonia of Father Hariton. I kiss Your Grace's right hand.
Salonika, Fabruary 1874. Your obedient P.R. Slaveykov
Another letter from P.R. Slaveykov: Your Grace,
I sent you a letter via a trustworthy man two days ago, in which I briefly described to you the situation in Salonika and Macedonia in connection with the unreasonable movement for the restoration of the Archbishopric of Ohrid in union with the Roman Catholic Church. After the meeting with some of the local elders I have understood that there were everywhere wide discussions for a broader plan, namely, to create a Uniate Church in Macedonia.
According to reliable sources, only the cheirotonia of Father Hariton is awaited before action will be taken. Until the blessing of the Pope for the proclamation of the Uniate Archbishopric of Ohrid arrives, the bishops with their eparchies will be constituent apart of the Uniate Church with their seat in Adrianople. Then Father Nathaniel will be appointed Archbishop of Ohrid and the following appointments will be made in the eparchies: Father Panaret for the Pelagonia eparchy, Brother Kozma Prechistenski for the Debar eparchy, Father Nil Izvorov for the Salonika eparchy and Father Dorotej for the Skopje eparchy. The other eparchies, for which there are no candidates proposed, will temporarily be governed by the neighboring archpriests. Father Nil will be Bishop of Salonika, Kukush and Voden. Father Hariton, after his ordination, will also become bishop of the Serez and Melnik eparchies. Father Dionisij, as an archimandrite, will temporarily govern the Strumica eparchy.
I have personal impression, Your Grace, that nobody here is asking for a real union with the Roman Catholic Church. It is simply a means of restoration of the Archbishopric of Ohrid. Catholic circles also feel this and therefore have no great confidence in the people with whom they are negotiating. So I do not think it is too late to actin order to overcome the discontent, which later could be subdued. The Uniate movement is more dangerous in the places where formerly there was a Union because of similar reasons. Kukush comes in the first place, followed by Dojran with sympathy from Strumica, Maleshevo and Voden. The Salonika, Serez, Melnik and Drama villages lag behind them. There is not any powerful stirring of the Uniate propaganda indeed, but where there is smoke there must be fire. The appointment of Bishop Nil is expected for the fire to blaze forth. The Poljanin eparchy will immediately turn into a Union and the Strumica and Voden eparchies will join in, as well as a huge number of villages in Salonika, Drama, Serres and other eparchies. The other Macedonian eparchies will certainly be shattered, too, first the Veles eparchy and then the Skopje one. The Veles eparchy is also dissatisfied with its bishop, Damaskin, while at the same time the citizens of Veles, aroused by a craving for power, believe that they should govern Macedonia in religious matters.
The causes of such a situation in the whole of Macedonia are very obvious. The Macedonian eparchies and towns I have already mentioned are extremely embittered by the serious position of the Church and the people in which they find themselves. The spreading of the idea of restoration of the Archbishopric of Ohrid upon an Uniate basis is also helped by the French and Austrian consuls, who promise full protection before the Turkish authorities and persecution of the Constantinople Patriarchate. The Greeks themselves indirectly help the spreading of the Union in Macedonia, expecting the Exarchate to become weak because of the Union and thus finding allies in the liquidation of the Catholic propaganda in Macedonia. I have concluded this from the talks I had with the Greek consul in Salonika. He was not in the least worried at the danger of the spread of the Union in Macedonia. On the contrary, Greece is seeking support for its economic and national activity in Macedonia. According to the opinion of the Greek consul, the part of the people who will not accept the Union, disillusioned with the Exarchate, will remain under the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate.
In the talks I had it was not by chance that the agents and adherents of the Union mentioned that the "Macedonian question" could only be settled through the Union. In order to make full use of the discontent and bitterness of the people against the Exarchate, they strengthen their accusation against the Exarchate. They speak about the Macedonian question upon a religious basis, but at the same time stir up the old separatist trends among the Macedonians - to create a new ethnic region through the Union - in the spirit of Midhat-Pasha's schemes. As the Roman Catholic agents worked out a cultural and national program for the Union in 1860 for the liberation of the Bulgarian people from the Patriarchate, they now also appear with a specific program for the spiritual and national liberation of the Macedonian eparchies through the Union. The Macedonian activists already widely use the expression the Macedonian movement in their language of communication, by which one should understand independent national and church liberation. I must emphasize strongly, Your Excellency, that this is a factor of an important political character - separatism is being spread starting from a religious basis towards a broader national one.
After the talks I had with Father Petar Dimov I felt that he has slowly retired from being drawn into the Union. Today he has officially renounced the Union and sent a letter to You expressing his loyalty to the Exarchate. I also talked to Father Averkij. He told me that he would also withdraw from the movement if appointments for the Exarchate bishops were issued by the autumn. My attitude towards these two Church dignitaries was moderate and friendly, because any repressive measures could stir up spirits.
.... Your spiritual child P.R. Slaveykov S. Dimevski, Dve pisma na P. R. Slaveykov za makedonizmot. - Razgledi XIV, 5(1972), p.561-566
April 6, 1878
in Salonika To the Right Honorable Austen Henry Layard "...Russian agents are busy in the country, and even here, trying to get petitions that the whole of Macedonia be included in Bulgaria... They tell the people: If you remain out, your state (and you see what it is) will be worse then it was before, while if you attach yourselves to us and our cause, you will get all the benefits accruing to a large and powerful Kingdom, under Russian protection... I remain... Edward B. Barker British Museum, London, Dmss Layard Papers, Vol. LXXXIX Addd. 39.019, 186-187.
1878
From the record of the Imperial Russian secret archives on the arrangement and government of the Balkan regions. ...Count Shuvalev demands that all the necessary measures for pacification of Macedonia be undertaken. For its purpose, it would be desirable to send competent agents there, and to proclaim to the Macedonians on behalf of the Governor, the Emperor, that His Highness is concerned about their fate, as much as for the other Slavs, and they will be granted the same freedom as that of the Bulgarians, now already liberated.... Dokumenti iz sekretnite arhivi na Ruskoto pravitelstvo. Sofia 1893, p.11-12.
1878
The rules of the Macedonian Rebel Commitee of the Kresna Uprising It is well known to all of us that this ill-fated country of ours, Macedonia, owing to the egoistic aims of the Great Powers, was gain left to Turkey after the Congress of Berlin. As a result of that, in certain regions of our fatherland many scenes full full of blood, known to all of us, took place....We rebelled as advocates of freedom. With the blood we shed all over Macedonian fields and forests, we serve freedom, as the Macedonian army of Alexander of Macedon did, with our slogan "Freedom or Death!" The aim of the Uprising in Macedonia 1.The uprising in Macedonia...should be extended all over Macedonia. 2. Those people from Macedonia who feel themselves to be Macedonians and love the freedom of their fatherland are taking part in the uprising. From the private archives of Cyril, Patriarch of Bulgaria, Arch. of Act 2341, AE 50, pp. 30-61. The Residence of the monastery of Dragolevci, Sofia, P.R. Bulgaria.
June 8, 1879
Georgi Pulevski to Despot Badzovic: ...The Bulgarians here are playing tricks with us and are turning the water to their mill alongside divine Nathaniel, who is a Macedonian, but rather inclined towards the Bulgarians... Arhiv Srbije (Beograd) Fond: Ministarstvo prosvete, P. nbr. 981/8.VI.1879; Razgledi XIV/10 (1972), p. 1132.
March 23, 1881
Manifesto of the Provisional Government of Macedonia: ...our dear Macedonia, our dear homeland is calling upon you: you who are my faithful children, you who are descendants of Aristotle and Alexandar the Great, you in whose veins Macedonian blood flows, do not let me die, but help me!... President Vasil Chomo, Secretary Nikola Trajkov in Kjustendil Centralnii Gosudartsvenii Arhiv Okjabarskii revoljucii i socialtieskoga stroitelstva SSSR, Moskva - Fond Gr.Ignatieva No.730 - opis No. 1, ed.hr.79; Lj. lape, Odbrani tekstovi za istorijata na makedonskio narod, II del, Skopje 1976, p.256-258.
May 9, 1888
Salonika. Temko Popov to Despot Badzovic ...I shall try to write to you, as far as possible, in our language, replacing the words I don't know with Bulgarian ones. What else can I do, Despot? While our language could one dictate to the other Slav languages, it has now remained the poorest of all, and like a begger, it serves either Bulgarian or Serbian....Let us no lie to ourselves, Despot, tha national spirit in Macedonia has reached such a stage today that even if Jesus Christ had come to the Earth, he would not have been able to persuade the Macedonian that he was a Bulgarian or a Serb, excepting those Macedonians in whom Bulgarian propaganda has already taken root. In order to convince yourself of this, you must have Bulgarianism in view. Bulgarian propaganda has now been working for 20 years in Macedonia, in the blindest of times - when Hellenism, coming from and entirely alien nation, started to take root in the Macedonian heart; but the Macedonians, seeing a ray of Slavism, rejected everything as if eyeless, without paying attention to the difference. It was sufficient for them to have broken with Hellenism. But what is to be done now i.e. after twenty years of Bulgarian striving, indoctrination and unsparing pecuniary sacrifaces? My dear Despot, everybody does what is natural, but unexpected for the Bulgarians, that is, now every Macedonian admits he is not a Bulgarian and declares loudly his nation, even though he may stilluse Bulgarian means, not having his own, of course. ... Your friend T. Popov Narodna Biblioteka, Belgrade - fond - Jovan Hadzi Vasiljevic II 413/III May 9 1988.
1890
A request by the citizens of Ohrid for the restoration of the Archbishopric of Ohrid To His Holiness, the Great Patriarch, Constantinople, We, loyal subjects to His Majesty, the Emperor Sultan Abdul Hamid II, for a long time did not have freedom for our Church, and since 1872 have become an even more misled flock, for we came under the Bulgarian Exarchate, deceived by Bulgarian propaganda. Thus we became schismatics, as well. ...Apart from the fact that Bulgarians deceived and beguiled us, they also reject our language, change our holy customs and alter our character, too. We cannot tolerate it any more and we do not want our children to curse us and the graves of our forefathers... (signatures of 120 citizens of Ohrid) DA DSIP - Beograd - PPO, F.7, d.6, p.br. 962, 1890.
June 22, 1891
Skopje Theodosius, Metropolitan of Skopje, to Archimandrite Dionysius in Sofia. ...our Holy Exarchate headed by His Holiness Exarch Joseph I does everything possible to persuade the wretched Macedonian people that it has good intentions, that it cares for their present and future and that it wants to draw them out of the darkness of national unawareness and create holy Bulgarians of them. But I would not have to persuade you too long, my dearest brother in Christ, that our Holy Exarchate, with its religious and educational activity here, in Macedonia, in fact carries out a most miserable task, it deprives a people of its name and replaces it with another, it deprives them of their mother tongue and replaces it with another, alien one, in order to allow its government and its Bulgarian masters to extend their commerce to foreign territories, too. And what else would you call this, my dear brother, other then a new slavery, even more terrible then the Turkish one? The Turks take the property and the lives of the people, but do not encroach upon their spirit. They destroy the body but respect the soul. And our Holy Exarchate kills the latter, the perpetual... I have written this to you, so that you would not be amazed by my previous letter in which I stated my opinion that we clergyman, Macedonians in origin, should unite and urge our people to awaken, throw off foreign authority, throw off even the Patriarchate and the Exarchate, and spiritually unified under the wing of the Archbishopric of Ohrid, their only true Mother Church. Is it not high time to put an end to the national movements of a single people among which some recognize the Patriarchate, some the Exarchate and some even bow to Mohammed? Is it not high time to put an end to hatred between blood brothers? And how could this be achieved if not by the way of our national Church , by way of the Archbishopric of Ohrid? I shall be sincere, my dear brother in Christ, and shall openly declare to you: we, the Macedonians, to not suffer as much by the Turks, long live our Padishah, as by the Greeks, the Bulgarians and the Serbs, who have set upon us like vultures upon a carcass in this tortured land and want to split it up. ("And they parted Your garments, Jesus")..... ...Theodosius of Skopje Centralen D'rzhaven istoricheski archiv (Sofia) 176, op. 1. arh.ed. 595, l.5-42 - Razgledi, X/8 (1968), p.996-1000.
December 4, 1891
Theodosius, Metropolitan of Skopje, to Pope Leo XIII I, the undersigned Metropolitan of Skopje, Theodosius, by God's Mercy head of Skopje eparchy, am submitting this request both in my name and in the name of of the whole Orthodox flock of Macedonia, in which we are begging His Holiness to accept us under the wing of the Roman Catholic Church...Our desire springs from the historical right of the Orthodox Macedonian people to be freed from the jurisdiction of fo |